My Testimony of Working with Charismatic Catholics
and other thoughts on the subject of tongues/
Bill Scudder Dayton, Ohio, USA
I would like to say first of all that I am not a Cecessionist. I do not
believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased with the New Testament
Apostles. They are available to the Church of God today.
For those who do not believe the above, you are still my brother or sister
in the Lord if you believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith
alone on account of Christ alone. What I am about to tell you is not
'politically correct' and I will be labeled as 'intolerant' or maybe even
a 'basher' by some people. I love Catholics, as I do anyone else, but it
is the doctrine's of Rome that are deceiving the Catholics.
President of the FGBMF-Peoria, Illinois
It started when I was voted in as President of a local chapter of the Full
Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International. We had a dinner meeting
once a month and a breakfast meeting once a month. At the dinner meeting
we would usually invite a Christian businessman to give his testimony. I
also held a Bible study and prayer meeting in my home.
Catholics began to come to my home prayer and Bible study meeting,
including a priest. The first thing this priest did was kneel in front of
me, as if I could impart something to him. Later I knew that he wanted me
to pray that he would receive tongues. Later that night I sat down with
him and the scriptures and tried to explain to him the plan of salvation.
My words and scriptures seemed to address deaf ears. His "religion" seemed
to have a shield around him so the "Gospel" could not be heard.
I became a friend with this Priest and we began to attend other meetings
together. More Catholics started coming to all of our meetings and I
invited a Catholic professor from Ball State University to come and speak
to our fellowship.
It wasn't long until many of these Catholics were seeking and receiving
tongues. At the time I just took it for granted that they were already
saved and were receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Priests, nuns and
others were beginning to receive tongues. I was guilty of believing that
tongues was an indication that we shared the same Holy Spirit experience,
and the same Jesus. This was due to my ignorance of the 'Gospel according
to Rome,' for which I have no excuse.
I was invited to teach a course one night a week for six weeks in a Roman
Catholic Parish, St. Monica In East Peoria, Illinois. Priests, nuns and
others were present. I taught on the gift of Salvation. At the time I was
not prepared for what I was confronting and because all present at the
meetings deemed themselves already saved because of the Roman Catholic
religion. I don't believe I addressed the subject in the right way. There
was a spirit of bondage given to them by Rome and they had a dependence on
their infant baptism and other doctrines of Rome which nullify the Gospel.
I was invited to attend Catholic Charismatic prayer meetings at Bradley
University as the only non-Catholic present.
One of the Catholic prayer groups were speaking in tongues and receiving
unbiblical interpretations of a sinful nature, supposedly coming direct
from Mary, 'the mother
of Jesus'. Which was further proof that the unsaved were receiving
'tongues' from a spirit other than God. Charismatic Catholics often become
more devoted to Mary after receiving a tongue that was not from the Holy
Spirit. The Holy Spirit only glorifies Christ.
MARY BECOMES THE FOCUS
Many Catholic Charismatics have migrated to Mary, whom they see as the
Holy Spirit's 'more interesting spouse.' The Catholic Charismatic
fellowship at Dayton University reported to the news media that since
their 'experience' they have been giving more devotion to Mary. In the
statement nothing was said about Christ.
That does not mean that we do not honor Mary at all for her physical part
in the birth of
Christ but we cannot venerate her more than the scriptures allow or make
her in any way Spiritually responsible for our salvation.
contrary to popular expectations, the sign of tongues that Catholics
recieved brought back to Catholicism those who had fallen away, reviving
their idolatrous practices. Some typical comments from Catholic
charismatics illustrate this:
--"Our devotion to Mary was filled with sanctification."
--"The sacramental life of the church has become richer in meaning."
--"I came to a better understanding of the eucharist as a sacrifice, and I
came back to frequent confession."
--"At that time I discovered a profound devotion to Mary."
Is the spirit that is active in the Roman Church, the Holy Spirit? In
speaking of Him, Jesus said, "He will guide you into all truth". This is
the particular characteristic of the Holy Spirit. It is characteristic of
an evil spirit to lead one into only part of the truth.
Now, one of the most marked effects of the Catholic charismatic movement
is to lead its followers into part-truth, part-error as, for example:
spontaneous prayer AND the rosary; the adoration of Christ AND the Holy
Sacrament; reading the Bible AND the veneration of Mary.
There are several testimonies from people who had been baptised by the
"Holy Spirit", one while reciting his rosary, another while singing a hymn
at mass, and yet another while on her knees praying to the Holy Virgin.
These testimonies are quite sufficient to prove that the spirit who
baptised these people is in contradiction with the Scriptures and cannot,
in any way, be the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
consists, not of doubting His work, but of attributing such error and such
dreadful idolatry to His divine person. To quote Charles Foster, "When the
experience of the Holy Spirit is put before doctrine and salvation,
seduction is certain..."
A Catholic Priest who was a sought after speaker in the Catholic
Charismatic movement and spoke at many FGBMFI chapters, was speaking one
night to a large group during one of our FGBMFI conventions. After his
talk he gave an altar call to come and be 'born again.' I had an uneasy
feeling, and after the service was over, I approached to ask him some
questions. I asked him if Jesus was the only way to be saved, and he said
very plainly, 'NO.' I asked, 'Do you have to be born again and believe in
Jesus Christ to be saved and he said 'NO.' What did he mean by 'born
It was obvious he meant that if you received tongues or any kind of
subjective feeling, that this was proof of being born again, having
nothing to do with being born from above by the Spirit of God or believing
in Christ alone for salvation.
At that point I rebuked him for what he said and he got very angry and
began to shake. I reported him to FGBMFI but nothing came of it. There are
several kinds of Roman Catholics. The Catholic church is not as united as
they would like everyone to believe. There is the liberal that believes
God is the Father of all and no-one is lost and the one that believes that
if you do good works and are baptised you will be saved and the
traditional pre-Vatican 2 Catholic that believes that only through the
Roman Catholic church can you be saved. Then there are all those in
((The Roman Catholic religion in its quest for ecumenism is now playing
both sides as is seen in Vatican II. ""....
An article published by the Dallas Morning News on Saturday March 20th,
1999 of an ecumenical meeting held in Dallas, Thanksgiving World Assembly,
shows the other side.
What is important about this meeting is that it was attended by a Nigerian
Cardinal of the Roman Catholic religion named Francis Arinze.
Many people think that Arinze, the Pope’s Deputy for Outreach, is heir
apparent to John Paul II. But even if he is not, his comments are chilling
An illustration of Roman Catholic ecumenism, which ices out the Gospel and
makes mockery of the ministry of Jesus Christ, is found in Arinze’s answer
to the question, "Can you still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?"His
answer, not surprising, but chilling and ominous, is: "Expressly, yes!"
He says"".....Gods grant of salvation includes not only Christians but
Jews,Muslims, Hindus and people of good will." ))
WHAT DOES THE POPE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS?
Note the following quote (Dallas Morning News, 12-09-00):
By Peggy Polk
and Robert Nowell
VATICAN CITY, Dec. 6 (RNS)--Tempering a controversial Vatican declaration
on salvation, Pope John Paul II said Wednesday that all who live a just
life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the
Roman Catholic Church.
The Pope blatantly contradicts the Bible
© 2000 Discerning the Times Digest and NewsBytes
On March 26, 2000.
The popular Catholic Pope John Paul II blatantly contradicted the Bible on
December 7 when he proclaimed "Heaven is open to all as long as they are
good," even for "those who ignore Christ and his Church."
The Bible clearly teaches only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as the
only way of salvation will be saved.
The December 8, Electronic Telegraph reported the Pope as saying that
"Heaven is open to all as long as they are good."
POPE'S WORDS BEFORE THE "ANGELUS", VATICAN CITY, OCT. 1, 2000 (ZENIT.org)
3. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through
authentic expressions of prayer. “The Spirit’s presence and activity”, as
I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, “affect not only
individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions”
(n. 28).Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in
their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own
conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s
invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not
recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9,
11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue
In spite of the mistakes of being too ecumenical with those that do not
beleive the Gospel, the FGBMFI has been and is being used of God, and many
have been saved through it's efforts, but I and others, have been guilty
of an ecumenical spirit and unity at any cost. We have given a false hope
of security to those who needed the truth of salvation.
Catholics no longer a mission field?
Some Evangelicals are now saying that Roman Catholics are no longer
considered to be a mission field since they are 'Christians', as evidenced
in the document ECT,(Evangelicals and Catholics together).
What a sad commentary to our brothers and sisters in Latin countries, and
others who have laid down their lives for the Gospel, and have seen
millions of Roman Catholics believe the Gospel. The future of evangelism
hangs in the balance.
In my eight years of working with Charismatic Catholics, I have come to
the following conclusions.
I had been naive and had neglected to really look into the doctrine of the
Roman Catholic Church to see what they really believed about the doctrine
of Salvation by Grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ
alone. I took it for granted that they believed the Gospel of the Bible. I
had not prepared and made serious mistakes. After study I found that
historically, and conversely, the Roman Catholic Church teaches as dogma,
that justification is conferred through her sacraments, and that it
consists of inner righteousness whereby a man, it is stated, becomes 'just
within himself.' The Church of Rome condemns the Biblical doctrine of
justification by faith alone. (Council of Trent)
Any non-Catholic Church that held the doctrines of the Roman Catholic
Church would be considered a 'Cult' by many of the same people who are
seeking unity with the Catholics.
I have discovered that most Protestants do not know what the Gospel is
'according to Rome'! And are easy prey for Roman Catholic apologists
because they do not know how to defend sola scriptura or because of their
extreme arminism. Do we once again need a reformation in the 'Protestant'Evangelical
It was the standard practice of the FGBMFI to tell Roman Catholics to stay
in the Catholic Church so that they could witness to others and I find
this to be true also in many protestant/Pentecostal churchs. I believe
this was a very dangerous attitude in that I found those who stayed
eventually were lost to the Roman Church once again for various reasons or
because they had not been truly born again. I believe most of the ones who
had trusted in Christ alone for salvation came out of the Roman Catholic
You cannot stay in a Church, without consequences, that denies we are
saved by what Christ did outside of us, and not what we can do to become
"Solo Christo" was one of the cries of the Protestant Reformation.
Translated from the Latin, it means "Christ Alone."
In these times, the growing tendency to emphasize feelings and experiences
at the expense of sound doctrine is presenting the world with a
'feel-good' religious community, the boundaries of which grow more
ephemeral with every new ecumenical pronouncement. This is especially true
among Roman Catholics and some Evangelical and some Charismatic
Christians. I want to emphasize that not all Evangelicals and Pentecostals
are being deceived but some are.
And the lines become more blurred, so that now in some ecumenical
meetings, New Agers, Universalists, Roman Catholic as well as "some" true
born again Christians such as Evangelicals and Pentecostals are coming
together to celebrate their oneness in a quote, 'Common Experience.' This
is the great deception.
Although speaking in tongues can be valid experience from God it is not
always of the Holy Spirit. It can be counterfeited. Satan has counterfeits
of every Gift of God. You can receive an experience without being saved,
and when this happens it leads to many problems. The major problem is a
false sense of security that you are saved, and leads you further away
from the true Gospel and many times into the occult. It has been
documented that most spiritulists are former Catholics.
If we accept everybody as brothers and sisters because they speak in
tongues, then we are heading down a slippery slope, Catholic or other
(Spiritual experience ALONE can never be the basis for unity.
Unity must be based on sound DOCTRINE.
Some may have a legitimate question about laying hands on unbelivers. some
bitterly regret having prayed for and laid hands on these Catholics who
have, according to some Pentecostal testimony, received an alien spirit as
a result. Does this mean that "we" transmited an evil spirit from us to
them? NO-in our ignorance God would not alow us to transmit the Holy
Spirit or an unclean spirit to a unregenerated person but we have been
guilty of helping that person open up to an unclean spirit.
"If anyone comes with another doctrine, do not receive him....for he who
greets him shares in his evil deeds."
Holy Bible 2 John 10-11 KJV.
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Galatians 5:1. KJV
Dayton, Ohio, USA
Permission is given by the author to copy this testimony to be used in any
way provided it is reproduced in its entirety including my e-mail address
without change and that the following disclaimer be included. This
testimony may be pasted on any other site but does not mean I agree with
all other documents or links listed there.